In real life, people are not good or evil for no reason at all. There is usually something that makes a person who he or she is. I should say right now, the purpose of this discussion is not to look for excuses; while we all are a product of where we come from, in the end we still have free will and the choice to be good or evil.
All opinions are welcome, so long as they are thoughtful and explained.
I know he is a bad person. I am just asking what made him that way. Even the most evil person in the world was born with a clean slate. Something in upbringing or environment made Marcus grow up to be what he was.
I actually thought about this a few times - it's probably because his parents treated him similar,abused him and his view point for what's good and what's bad became twisted (if he wasn't born twisted?But that doesn't happen in real life..much) i mean in the third book when Johanna confronts him about abusing Tobias (from Tobias' POV , Tobias says Marcus looks confused, which means there is something so much wrong with his head that he doesn't get what's wrong with abusing your own son , at least that's how i see it)
It is probable that Marcus was himself a victim of childhood abuse, and that he is continuing the cycle of violence.
If Marcus was (for example) molested by his father, than he would have lots of problems to deal with. He would not deal with these problems in a healthy way, and would instead just bottle them up. This would cause him to resent everything and everyone, and would manifest in violent outbursts against his family.
On the other hand, he might simply think the abuse he suffered was normal. This could be why he does not see what is wrong with him beating his wife and son.
Personally, when I was reading the ending I hoped Tobias would make Marcus drink the memory serum (thus cleaning his slate).
Or at the very least, it would have been beneficial to everyone if Marcus ended up behind bars (Marcus included). The mental screenings would force him to come to terms with his problems.
I don't see Marcus as evil. I mean, I know he beat four, but that to me doesn't come across as evil. It comes across as being an abusive father. And maybe it was for his own good or something, or maybe he felt the same way because of whatever happened to him when he was a kid. Maybe he just wanted to relieve his anger out on four, but it was definitely not the right way to do it.
This is a reply to comment #9 that says that all of the Erudite are mean.
I disagree with you because at the end of insurgent and through all of Allegiant many people from Erudite help Tris(Cara, Fernando, Elia). Like Dauntless, the leaders became corrupt and warped the ideals. It can be like comparing Eric to Tris. While Tris is Dauntless, she is a different kind of Dauntless to him. He is cruel and sadistic, while she believes in "ordinary acts of bravery and the courage it takes for one person to stand up for another.
I think that Marcus is very mistreated as a character. Yes, at one point he hit his wife and child over several years too, however he was a very useful figure during the end of insurgent regardless. However, after reading four:a divergent collection it is hard to find sympathy for him, due to the way he is painted as a monster during four's fear landscape. Years later though,(two to be exact), four returns the favour and beats him(if I remember correctly), so I think this as his revenge enacted. Marcus was humiliated, and I thought that it should have been the end of Marcus, yet he came back as an anti hero. He was not really designed to be liked.
he should be dead. I just noticed me and willia98 just quoted a Katniss Everdeen line. Anyway I have a theory that Marcus was abused as a child. Most parents who were abused by their own parents abuse their own children either because that is the only form of parenting they know of or simply because they want somebody else to feel the years of the pain and suffering they faced it probably has the same concept as bullying.
I hate Marcus, but in all fareness in Insurgent he helped get the information from the computers at the Eruidite headquarters.However I understand it has nothing to to do with the fact he BEAT HIS OWN SON!!! It is a good thing he did and should be accounted towards his reputation but nothing can make up for Tobias's tramatic childhood.
nothing can I just hope Tobias never beats his own children so they know how it feels because I bet he knows other styles of parenting I am pretty sure many of you read my theory on abuse two messages up.
Timjames98 wrote: I know he is a bad person. I am just asking what made him that way. Even the most evil person in the world was born with a clean slate. Something in upbringing or environment made Marcus grow up to be what he was.
i have a thought
abnegation is all about suppressing your own human nature and desires
it can be very stressful, especially when you're one of the government officials
so his abnegation values became twisted and he began to confuse domestic abuse to be a good thing
someone has to start that vicious cycle, and it is possible that it was marcus who started it rather than his parents
well that can happen with an abused child when they get violent many of them fear becoming like their parents although many of them probably do I think that becoming like his father should've been in Tobias' fear landscape.
so like Tris you think he can fight and be immune to the death serum? I also sometimes wonder the result on his aptitude test. we know he had Erudite as one of his results as he is very intelligent with how he taught himself how to hotwire a car. I don't think he received abnegation. he could've received dauntless as a result. he is a cruel little piece of sh*t so he obviously didn't receive Amity. He is also a compulsive liar on how he denied abusing Tobias so he probably got the results Erudite and Dauntless although he may have also received Abnegation as he somehow became the leader.
it was marcus' way of protecting tobias, he didnt want jeneane to figure out that tobias was divergent. marcus could also have been abused as a child and sees this as a acceptableway to punish tobias. what marcuus did was wrong, but in marcus' mind he sees no wrong in abusing tobias to help save his life
Abnegation Candor Erudite wrote: Well he is from Erudite, and we can all agree that Erudite is mean.
No. I do not agree.
Erudite is like Dauntless, the leader got corrupted and basically inserted everyone with the serum. Erudite also is supposed to be smart and curious, which I don't find suspicious. (Dauntless is the.one that has "cruel" in the flaws.) Jeanine is a bad person, and personality doesn't really come from birth faction(that's the test. He might have been Erudite but born in Abnegation.) Plus Caleb was erudite but he was still a nice guy. ~ Snowfrost
I personly think that Marcus is mean because he beats his own child for heaven sake. HE hurt his own son so much, that Tobias chose the one faction that would hurt his father the most. What a lot of people forget is that he also beat his wife. Most people just focous on Tobias, bit don't forget that he beat Evelyn to the point where she faked her death and went to factionless. I think theses are the reason Marcus is evil
Hina18 wrote: I actually thought about this a few times - it's probably because his parents treated him similar,abused him and his view point for what's good and what's bad became twisted (if he wasn't born twisted?But that doesn't happen in real life..much) i mean in the third book when Johanna confronts him about abusing Tobias (from Tobias' POV , Tobias says Marcus looks confused, which means there is something so much wrong with his head that he doesn't get what's wrong with abusing your own son , at least that's how i see it)
I agree with this, but I still think its wrong for Marcus to abuse Tobias.
He was super abusive he seemed like a person who was blamed for everything I almost felt sorry for him until I realized how he treated Evelyn and Four(Tobias) I decided otherwise I mean who can treat everyone else normally but his family like dirt I feel bad for Evelyn,Four,and Marcus they've all had a cruddy life.
Marcus is not so evil he grew up in a world that was broken and tried to blend in, plus if he never did that the books would be diffrent and tobias wouldn't be so tough after all. So no he isn't that evil.